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Conclave of Providence • View topic - Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

All proposals on the Status of Holders should be posted here for debate.

Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby Jin'taan » Sun May 22, 2016 12:10 pm

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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby Laurentian Korvush » Sun May 22, 2016 3:24 pm

Before I think of names possibly better suited than those proposed, let us discuss the system.

Currently the Lord Magistrate names Holder Alliances for certain areas. These entitled Allliance executors task their corps with the administration
of systems and the corp CEOs divide responsibilities among their directors, officers and pilots.
I see nothing proposed to change this except for giving them a uniform naming convention.

To be clear, I oppose any change to the described system. Names and titles we can discuss, if deemed important.


On names:

I see no reason to change the title of Lord Magistrate as the one held by the executor of the CVA.
It is humble, yet clear. He is not sovereign but one who holds an office in place of the emperor.
His task is to oversee all of Greater Amarria and mediate between it's holders.

If you want to use "Warden" as a title I suggest is simply to be Warden of -system name-
The War-Hold part is unnecessary.

I question wether it is our place to tell holder alliances what they have to call their officers.
Telling an Alliance to call their Executor title a while they have been referring to him by another one for years would be improper.
The same goes for corps and lower.
All we should do is make suggestions to alliances and corps who have not implemented a system yet.

In doing so we should abstain from using anything that could challenge imperial supremacy.
One such word is sovereign. The other is knight.

I suggest

- Lord Magistrate (CVA exec)
- Protector (holder alliance exec)
- Warden (Someone Overseeing several systems)
- Governour ((Obsolete spelling intended ;) )) (someone overseeing one system)
- Sir without additional title (honour granted by Governours or higher to deserving members who have also been given a personal claim in their hold, ofc pending imperial recognition)

All these titles can be granted to non-amarr as they describe office without implying nobility and will not offend true holders.
Last edited by Laurentian Korvush on Sun May 22, 2016 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Younger brother of a minor holder in khanid, history with the order of st tetrimon. exact capacity ist still to be reviewed so i don't mess up stuff.
if you feel I am missinterpreting or am unaware of PF, please contact me OOC so I can correct myself ;)
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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby W Sherman Elric » Sun May 22, 2016 9:35 pm

It is my belief that this issue is inherently related to Operation Deliverance. To assign Imperial Titles without Imperial mandate speaks to the usurpation of rights and roles reserved solely to the Empire. However, the granting of internal self policed titles that are not recognized by the Empire would appear to be a very good compromise. We have several examples to choose from, Khinad is technically a part of the Empire yet they have their own internal Titles that upon unification were accepted on par with Empire. On the other end is the Amatar Protectorate which has titles internally that are not recognized by the Empire. How we proceed with this Conclave and the answer to Operation Deliverance should determine this issue.
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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby Utari Onzo » Mon May 23, 2016 1:23 pm

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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby JedsZero » Mon May 23, 2016 2:17 pm

I fully agree with the above statements by Utari Onzo and Laurentian Korvush.

On top of that I personally believe that the title of Protector for Holder Alliance Execs is very appropriate, it describes the task of the Holder Alliance Execs perfectly and humbly.

As a Holder Alliance Exec, I see it as my first obligation to protect all those who reside within the systems APOC claims sovereignty over, and this goes much further then protecting our borders and preventing incursions by hostile entities. In my opinion Holder Alliances are directly responsible for the lives and well being of all those residing within their territory, from the workers in the many mining colonies on our many worlds to the high born citizens overseeing the planetary operations, from the maintenance and engineering crews on our ships to the civilian administrators on our stations and citadels... it is this that makes it a heavy burden that rests on the shoulders of a Holder Alliance Exec, and as said... the title of Protector perfectly and humbly describes the great responsibility the position brings with it.
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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby Vaari » Mon May 23, 2016 8:14 pm

Your graces, we must consider the birth and one's line before granting them such powerful titles as a "Lord"

My good and close friend, Sir Daedalus is not lord, nor he ever will be, because of his lowborn line and somehow...commoner attitude for life that can be seen for his way to speak for example.

I see that only way for him to achieve social status that grants the title Lord is through marriage. While it can be arranged, I suspect he is not ready for that kind of life.

While I like titles, we must then have prestigious, yet different titles for people who hold same rank in Providence, yet are in different social status because of their line.

Example: Lord Magistrate is reserved to someone who leads the Proviblock and is amarrian nobleborn male. In Sir Daedalus case it could be Serene Magistrate.
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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby ChristianBlood » Mon May 23, 2016 9:30 pm

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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby Vaari » Tue May 24, 2016 8:05 am

We cannot ignore such laws if we wish to remain loyalists. My flesh is tainted sure, but im not striving to become emperir.

Your friend
-"Lord" Vaari
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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby Laurentian Korvush » Tue May 24, 2016 8:28 am

I fully agree with Lord Vaari. While we empyreans are elevated among men we are not all equal, otherwise God would have blessed all of us with noble birth.

This is not meant as an insult. Just a statement of fact. Any commoner who knows his place can live a life more pleasing to God than a holder who forgets his.
Younger brother of a minor holder in khanid, history with the order of st tetrimon. exact capacity ist still to be reviewed so i don't mess up stuff.
if you feel I am missinterpreting or am unaware of PF, please contact me OOC so I can correct myself ;)
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Re: Proposal - The Establishment of War-Holds

Postby ChristianBlood » Tue May 24, 2016 3:29 pm

Lords and Ladies, Esteemed and Honored Members

Lord Vaari, Lord Korvush

I bring these words to you with utmost respect. I find error in judgment and fallacy in your reasoning. Lord Vaari stated, and I quote, “We cannot ignore such laws if we wish to remain loyalists”. The families and Holders of Udorian linage will surly disagree. Fore, have they not been granted such titles and esteem only after proving their faith, loyalty and love to the Empire? Furthermore, the Khanid Kingdom will bring forth an influx of Lord, Ladies and a plethora of other titles. Have they not proven that titles can be bestowed upon, those not currently deemed worthy of such esteem and notice, by the established elite, only to be accepted later by the ruling lines?

The Khanid Kingdom has proven that you can persevere alone for a time in the stars, and forge your path to glory, only to be folded back into the loving embrace of the Empire. Furthermore, whilst we are on the path of Annexation to the Glory of the Empire, the titles, rank and privilege will hold true to Providence and in Providence only, the same as how Khanid operated there Royal lines. I sincerely believe that we can find a compromise and balance in the bestowment of titles in amongst us all in Providence.

Yours in Service,


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